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    Dueling: The Context of Honor in Relation to Social Status

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    Dueling: The Context of Honor in Relation to Social Status

    Post by Lucid Memes on Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:33 am

    I was researching the nature of dueling cultures throughout history and found the nature of the subject to be somewhat silly, yet very interesting. To the men of that time and culture, the commitment to "honor" meant everything and was valued at such high cost, that men battled and dueled to the death in protection of it. But what is honor, and is there a more literal or material explanation that merits its value? I think so, if you can comprehend the paradigm of cultures with this mentality, that a person's level of honor is like a form of currency in that society. Perhaps the best definition I can think of in discribing it, is that "honor" is the ability (or trustability) to "pay back."

    Now, the context of "pay back" is dependent on the time. In feudal times, pay back was in reference to an insult...so one would defend one's honor (or family's honor) by violent retaliation (hence pay back) against any perceived insult or public humiliation what-so-ever. Cause in those feudal days, a person's social hierarchy was directly related to the amount of violence they were able to wield. So to not "pay back" insults at the risk of what's life, or to decline a dueling challenge, was a sign of social inferiority within your class. The emotional or romantic interpretation of honor, apart from it's material sense, is probably related to self-sacrifice and perceived heroism in defense of one's reputation. And although not all duels ended with the lose of life, but many a courageous fool lost their lives battling to the death for petty insults.

    But what I find as an interesting point to argue, is that in modern times (especially in our consumerist culture), the equivalent to "honor defending pay back," in this context, is in that of "credit worth." Jacque Attali has written about how the wallet has conquered the sword. The new social hierarchy is not violence, it is now wealth, and today's honorable person is someone with good credit, cause its a sign of their trustworthiness to "pay back" debt. I'm not exactly sure if this connection is accurate, but I think it is. I think there are also examples of lawyers dueling in a court of law as being the modern version of courts of knights in battle. And to give further example of the shift of away from dueling society (the contrast between feudal and industrial society) check out this excerpt from the wiki page on Honor.

    Cultures of Honour and Cultures of Law


    One can contrast cultures of honour with cultures of law. In a culture of law there is a body of laws which must be obeyed by all, with punishments for transgressors. This requires a society with the structures required to enact and enforce laws. A culture of law incorporates an unwritten social contract: members of society agree to give up most of their rights to defend themselves and retaliate for injuries, on the understanding that transgressors will be apprehended and punished by society. From the viewpoint of anthropology, cultures of honour typically appear among nomadic peoples and herdsmen who carry their most valuable property with them and risk having it stolen, without having recourse to law enforcement or government. In this situation, inspiring fear forms a better strategy than promoting friendship; and cultivating a reputation for swift and disproportionate revenge increases the safety of one's person and property. Thinkers ranging from Montesquieu to Steven Pinker have remarked upon the mindset needed for a culture of honour.

    Cultures of honour therefore appear among the Bedouin, Scottish and English herdsmen of the Border country, and many similar peoples, who have little allegiance to a national government; among cowboys, frontiersmen, and ranchers of the American West, where official law-enforcement often remained out of reach, as is famously celebrated in Westerns; among the plantation culture of the American South, and among aristocrats, who enjoy hereditary privileges that put them beyond the reach of codes of law. Cultures of honour also flourish in criminal underworlds and gangs, whose members carry large amounts of cash and contraband and cannot complain to the law if it is stolen.

    Cultures of honour will often arise when three conditions exist: 1) a lack of resources; 2) where the benefit of theft and crime outweighs the risks; and 3) a lack of sufficient law enforcement (such as in geographically remote regions). Historically cultures of honour exist in places where the economy is dominated by herding animals. In this situation the geography is usually remote since the soil can not support extensive sustained farming and thus large populations; the benefit of stealing animals from other herds is high since it is main form of wealth; and there is no central law enforcement or rule of law. However cultures of honour can also appear in places like modern inner city slums. The three conditions exist here as well: lack of resources (poverty); crime and theft have a high rewards compared to the alternatives (few); and law enforcement is generally lax or corrupt.

    Once a culture of honour exists, it is difficult for its members to make the transition to a culture of law; this requires that people become willing to back down and refuse to immediately retaliate, and from the viewpoint of the culture of honour, this tends to appear to be an unwise act reflecting weakness.

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    The Burr-Hamilton duel of 1804 - Alexander Hamilton defends his honour by accepting Aaron Burr's challenge. Hamilton dies.


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    Re: Dueling: The Context of Honor in Relation to Social Status

    Post by Extant on Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:43 pm

    A damn good film on the subject of honour duels in Napoleonic France:



    Ridley Scott's first ever feature film, a superb study of a life long feud between two army officers, one clearly a psychpath, who instigated the entire thing. He is played by Harvey Keitel.
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    Re: Dueling: The Context of Honor in Relation to Social Status

    Post by Lucid Memes on Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:57 pm

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    Ah ha! I saw that movie last year and totally loved. I need to see it again especially after typing the subject. The Duellists, in a way with its concept of dueling rivalries over a long period of time, suggested to me to be a creative influence to the Highlander series (which I'm also a fan of) albeit sci-fi.


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    Re: Dueling: The Context of Honor in Relation to Social Status

    Post by Lucid Memes on Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:49 am

    Another aspect not mentioned yet is the honor based suicides. The East had/has a pretty strong honor ethic. I remember the stories of feudal Japan, where a warriors failures were only vindicated by self-inflicted death.

    Perhaps something I forgot to mention was the female's roll in an honor culture. Women's honor mainly revolved around chastity. Any defiling before marriage meant that her father could not marry her off due to her lack of honor (and consequently the family's lack of honor). So killing the dishonorable by family members was/is seen as a way to repair the disgrace. Shameful honor killings still happen today.

    I remember the first time I heard that concept, my first response was "where the heck is the honor in that!?" It doesn't make sense if you think of honor as kindness and respect as most people normally do. I think its more accurately portrayed as an over-obsession with an individual's (or family's) public reputation or perceived image of value...which renders it as faith based as fiat currency.


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    Re: Dueling: The Context of Honor in Relation to Social Status

    Post by missingyoumadly on Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:48 am

    I think in a patriarchal family, in which the FAMILY UNIT is held to a higher degree of importance than a single individual, "honor" is collective...so one person without honor will be eliminated in order to preserve the honor of the group. This is evident in many cultures, even now...ever hear of someone being "disowned" for being gay? Or for not following the father's career path? Or for marrying someone of another race?

    Lucid Memes wrote:Another aspect not mentioned yet is the honor based suicides. The East had/has a pretty strong honor ethic. I remember the stories of feudal Japan, where a warriors failures were only vindicated by self-inflicted death.

    Perhaps something I forgot to mention was the female's roll in an honor culture. Women's honor mainly revolved around chastity. Any defiling before marriage meant that her father could not marry her off due to her lack of honor (and consequently the family's lack of honor). So killing the dishonorable by family members was/is seen as a way to repair the disgrace. Shameful honor killings still happen today.

    I remember the first time I heard that concept, my first response was "where the heck is the honor in that!?" It doesn't make sense if you think of honor as kindness and respect as most people normally do. I think its more accurately portrayed as an over-obsession with an individual's (or family's) public reputation or perceived image of value...which renders it as faith based as fiat currency.
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    Re: Dueling: The Context of Honor in Relation to Social Status

    Post by Lucid Memes on Fri Dec 25, 2009 11:58 am

    Quoted from the "[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]" thread:

    Extant wrote:Next show on the 24th December? The Samuarai. Should be of interest to Lucid Memes as regards his Duelling and Honour thread. pirat

    Thanks for the heads-up Extant. I just got done listening to the episode. It was pretty good. It confirmed some of what had been mentioned in this thread. That decentralized/localized authority is a characteristic of an honor culture. Similar to mafioso organized-crime, one of the scholars described Japanese samurai feudalism as a "protection racket" and I agree with the assessment.

    Sagan's Cosmos had an episode where they depict the honor suicide of a defeated samurai clan.

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    Re: Dueling: The Context of Honor in Relation to Social Status

    Post by Extant on Fri Dec 25, 2009 4:34 pm

    Lucid Memes wrote:Quoted from the "[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]" thread:

    Extant wrote:Next show on the 24th December? The Samuarai. Should be of interest to Lucid Memes as regards his Duelling and Honour thread. pirat

    Thanks for the heads-up Extant. I just got done listening to the episode. It was pretty good. It confirmed some of what had been mentioned in this thread. That decentralized/localized authority is a characteristic of an honor culture. Similar to mafioso organized-crime, one of the scholars described Japanese samurai feudalism as a "protection racket" and I agree with the assessment.

    Sagan's Cosmos had an episode where they depict the honor suicide of a defeated samurai clan.

    Yeah, I listened to it earlier this morning. Good episode.
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    Re: Dueling: The Context of Honor in Relation to Social Status

    Post by Lucid Memes on Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:17 pm

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    Re: Dueling: The Context of Honor in Relation to Social Status

    Post by Extant on Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:21 pm

    That is immense. It deserves King Meme status. cheers

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