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    manichaeism

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    warrenBbull
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    manichaeism

    Post by warrenBbull on Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:26 am

    "Zoroastrianism is often compared with the Manichaeism, which is nominally an Iranian religion but has its origins in the Middle-Eastern Gnosticism. Superficially, such a comparison may be apt as both are uncompromisingly dualistic and Manichaeism nominally adopted many of the Yazatas for its own pantheon. Gherardo Gnoli, in Eliade, Mircea (ed.), The Encyclopaedia of Religion, MacMillan Library Reference USA, New York, 1993, volume 9, page 165, has this to say: "...we can assert that Manichaeism has its roots in the Iranian religious tradition and that its relationship to Mazdaism, or Zoroastrianism, is more or less like that of Christianity to Judaism"

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    Another look into Manichaeism:

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    This appears to be the root religion of Zoroastrianism, much like judaism is the root of x-ianity and islam, or hinduism is to budhism..... Or at least this is what this article is saying, but this is just a wiki article though so who knows. But if it's correct, then manichaeism pre-dates zoroastrianism..... And all today's religions are based on Zoroastrianism... Eh, it kinda resembles a family tree of religions eh?..... I find this interesting... Does anyone have anything to add onto this?
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    Re: manichaeism

    Post by Phoenix778m on Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:05 pm

    This is from my Timeline over at liberatedlinguists.ning.org remember to check it for historical context. I've also added some good notations.
    Mani 200AD and Zoroaster 330BC were much later than actual Mitraism around 1400BC.

    Mitra(Hittite/Hurrian) 1400 BC First Mention of Mitra in the peace treaty between Hittites/Hurrians Zoroasterism. Sun God(Ahura-Mazda). Vestas "Book of Praise"(1000BC)
    Akhenaten 1336/1334 BC Pharaoh of the Eighteenth dynasty of Egypt. He is especially noted for attempting to compel the Egyptian population in the monotheistic worship of Aten(Sun God).
    Etruscan Civil. 1200-100 BC Tower Builders Lat.(Turris) Gr.(Tower)
    Phoenician 1200-900 BC Great Sea Traders, Lebannon, Israel, Syria, Palestine. Phoenician language belongs to Semetic/Canaanite Lanugages.
    Phrygian Kingdom 1200-700 BC Etruscan (Tower Builders), King Midas. Psammetichus admitted that the Phrygians were a nation older than the Egyptians.
    Celtic Culture 1200-0 BC Celt (Druid(Oak) Priests Ended in 61 AD) "Druidh", ' a Wiseman ' or ' magician. Sacred Fires and Worshiped in Groves.
    Tcheou(Zhou) Dynasty 1122-256 BC Ruled China started practicing Brahminic and avestic dogmas and beleifs
    Scythian(Ashkenazi) 1000-338AD BC Located around Armenia, Greater Iran, Worshiped Fire. Bible referse to peoples as Ashkenaz (Aškuzai or Iškuzai "Scythian") Herodotus-"Then on the other side of the Gerros we have those parts which are called the “Royal” lands and those Scythians who are the bravest and most numerous and who esteem the other Scythians their slaves." Claim dissidence from Japhet. Josephus-identified the offspring of Magog as the Scythians (Gr. Scythia Magogia)
    Avestas 1000 BC Written by Zoroaster.

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    Re: manichaeism

    Post by warrenBbull on Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:42 am

    Phoenix778m wrote:This is from my Timeline over at liberatedlinguists.ning.org remember to check it for historical context. I've also added some good notations.
    Mani 200AD and Zoroaster 330BC were much later than actual Mitraism around 1400BC.

    Mitra(Hittite/Hurrian) 1400 BC First Mention of Mitra in the peace treaty between Hittites/Hurrians Zoroasterism. Sun God(Ahura-Mazda). Vestas "Book of Praise"(1000BC)
    Akhenaten 1336/1334 BC Pharaoh of the Eighteenth dynasty of Egypt. He is especially noted for attempting to compel the Egyptian population in the monotheistic worship of Aten(Sun God).
    Etruscan Civil. 1200-100 BC Tower Builders Lat.(Turris) Gr.(Tower)
    Phoenician 1200-900 BC Great Sea Traders, Lebannon, Israel, Syria, Palestine. Phoenician language belongs to Semetic/Canaanite Lanugages.
    Phrygian Kingdom 1200-700 BC Etruscan (Tower Builders), King Midas. Psammetichus admitted that the Phrygians were a nation older than the Egyptians.
    Celtic Culture 1200-0 BC Celt (Druid(Oak) Priests Ended in 61 AD) "Druidh", ' a Wiseman ' or ' magician. Sacred Fires and Worshiped in Groves.
    Tcheou(Zhou) Dynasty 1122-256 BC Ruled China started practicing Brahminic and avestic dogmas and beleifs
    Scythian(Ashkenazi) 1000-338AD BC Located around Armenia, Greater Iran, Worshiped Fire. Bible referse to peoples as Ashkenaz (Aškuzai or Iškuzai "Scythian") Herodotus-"Then on the other side of the Gerros we have those parts which are called the “Royal” lands and those Scythians who are the bravest and most numerous and who esteem the other Scythians their slaves." Claim dissidence from Japhet. Josephus-identified the offspring of Magog as the Scythians (Gr. Scythia Magogia)
    Avestas 1000 BC Written by Zoroaster.


    Could you please break this down into simpler terms? No offense to you but I'm having a hard time understanding (or overstanding) what you are meaning to get across.

    "Mitra(Hittite/Hurrian) 1400 BC[/b] First Mention of Mitra in the peace treaty between Hittites/Hurrians Zoroasterism. Sun God(Ahura-Mazda). Vestas "Book of Praise"(1000BC)"

    From this, we can tell that some form of Zoroasterism pre-dated Mitraism, or what is being considered to be mitraism.... Because there was obviously a prior dispute between Hittite and Hurrian zoroastrians. Further, it only said they mentioned Mitra, it did not state they actually made it into a religion here. But, given the timeline, it does seem likely that they did begin Mitraism there though...
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    Re: manichaeism

    Post by Phoenix778m on Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:54 pm

    I'm sorry, I can agree my notations are probably confusing at times.

    "Mitra(Hittite/Hurrian) 1400 BC First Mention of Mitra in the peace treaty between Hittites/Hurrians Zoroasterism. Sun God(Ahura-Mazda). Vestas "Book of Praise"(1000BC)"

    These should probably be separated as such:
    1.Mitra(Hittite/Hurrian) 1400 BC[/b] First Mention of Mitra in the peace treaty between Hittites/Hurrians.

    2. Zoroasterism: 1000BC Sun God(Ahura-Mazda). "Vestas" Book of Praise


    I think your putting the cart before the horse. Zoroaster and Mani came much later than the earlier religion of Mitra. It would be like saying that Hersey's Chocolate predates Chocolate itself. Hersey's is just another type of Chocolate. Zoroaster and Mani are just different type of Mithraism. Were talking 400 years or more! which is a lot of time for a gospel to go through changes. Thanks to the Elite it isn't necessary to understand every version as long as you understand the basics of Sun religion. You can even say that Mithra is a different flavor of even older sun religions of the Sumerian's 3500 and most likely even earlier!

    As far as my other notations and history:
    The Hurrians is a phonetic play on the word Ayrians. "Hur" & "Ayr". The Hurrians were eventually conquered by the Hittites. The Hittites believe they were descended from Cain. (But weren't all "RULERS" descended from "CAIN"(ROD)?)I think it is also important to understand that even though there were a lot of different city states. The legal and diplomatic language of all nations was Akkadian from around 2300BC till 300BC. So these great empires of the Hurrians, Akkadians, Kassites, Hittites, Summer, Babylon ect. all played the game of "Civilization" with each other. Mitras was evoked as a god in a peace treaty between Hurrians and Hittites(1400BC)who share much of their "religion" with each other, wink, wink.

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    Re: manichaeism

    Post by warrenBbull on Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:00 pm

    Well this makes since, but I know that TSZ is zorastrian, and I know the concept of the ubermensch (the stated goal of eugenics in fact) is very important in the elite's religion.....

    I've done a little study on Zoroastrianism and it does provide an outline for most of the other religions today....... A skeleton from which to hang the adornments, if you will.... But I'm confused,

    *** if Mitraism came before Zoroastrianism, then why would all the religions be based on Zoroastrianism instead of Mitraism?****

    ...... I'm getting a little confused here.

    Isn't Mitraism an earlier, more pagan form of Atonism (more or less)? And I know the X-ian religion is pretty much an exact clone of the Atonist religion....

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    Re: manichaeism

    Post by warrenBbull on Fri May 01, 2009 1:06 am

    What I need is a timeline going back to our origin and evolution, up till present, that I can check for truth or false on my own....
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    Re: manichaeism

    Post by Phoenix778m on Fri May 01, 2009 6:44 pm

    Good luck with that. People have just picked a time in history and said "Zoroastrianism was the basis of all religions" but his wasn't the first religion. It actually goes back to India worship of Agni(Fire). Then you could you say it goes even further because The Brahmans ruled for 2,000 years or so before they even wrote their religion down. Maybe all religions "today" do come from Zoroastrianism, but it didn't start there. Your not going to find a time line that will sort this out. Main stream scientific calculations are "educated" guess's at best.
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    Re: manichaeism

    Post by Lucid Memes on Fri May 01, 2009 7:30 pm

    I think Zoroastrianism is the basis for all of the major Western religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam)

    Where as before people would say that the Abrahamic tradition was the root of the West, I think the Persia Zoroastrian influence is often overlooked

    The Jews were grateful to the Persians for freeing them from their Babylonian captivity, it is at this point they adopted much of the Zoroastrian aspects into their system.


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    Re: manichaeism

    Post by Lucid Memes on Sun May 03, 2009 6:46 pm

    I see what the confusion is. I just tried to put together a timeline, but ran into trouble because there seems to be a lot of confusion regarding the date of Zoroaster

    But what I do know is, that an Indo-Iranian religion, i.e. Mitras and off shoot of ancient Hinduism, did spread through the Middle East and into Europe where it was known as Mithraism at a much later date

    But in between all this, the development of Zoroastrianism branched off from the old Indo-Iranian belief system

    And after that, Manichaeism came into the picture last in 216–276 AD

    Mani's Life

    Mani (called Manes by the Greeks and Romans) was born near Baghdad, probably of Persian parents; his father may have been a member of the Mandaeans. After wandering for several years as a meditative ascetic he came forward (c.240) as the inspired prophet of a new religion. He went to Bactria in NW India, where he came in contact with Buddhism.

    He returned to Persia after the coronation (241) of Shapur I, who was tolerant of new religious movements; at the Sassanid capital of Ctesiphon he began preaching (c.242) the doctrine that was to become Manichaeism, a great synthesis of elements from Gnosticism, Zoroastrianism, other Persian religions, Christianity, Buddhism, and Taoism, as well as from the teachings of Marcion. Rejecting all of the Old Testament and parts of the New Testament, Mani claimed Buddha, Zoroaster, Hermes, and Plato as his predecessors. He always called himself "Mani, Apostle of Jesus Christ" and held that he was the Paraclete promised by Jesus.

    During the long reign of Shapur I (d. 272), Mani was free to travel about the realm making converts. However, the accession of Bahram I brought a reaction against the Manichaeans (or Manichees) from orthodox Zoroastrian religious circles, and, after 272, Mani and his followers met with increasing persecution. He died while imprisoned (c.276) in SW Persia.

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    What I find interesting is that Manicheanism is often regarded as the first dualistic religion. I think this assertion is incorrect. Zoroastrianism was dualistic before it (and even Hinduism to a lesser extent)...Mani is probably better associated with refining a dualistic model, but should not be credited as inventing it


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    Re: manichaeism

    Post by Phoenix778m on Mon May 04, 2009 3:12 pm

    "Mani is probably better associated with refining a dualistic model, but should not be credited as inventing it"

    This is a good assessment.
    Remember that one famous Mani follower was St Augustine of Hippo. He loved widows sons. "The bishop protects the orphans that they may not be oppressed by strangers after the death of the parents." sure they do.

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    Re: manichaeism

    Post by warrenBbull on Wed May 06, 2009 2:18 pm

    Well what about the Baal religion? I kinda thought the high elites were into Baal? Where does this fit in at?

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    Re: manichaeism

    Post by warrenBbull on Wed May 06, 2009 2:27 pm

    Would anyone be interested in a small group project, to build a timeline to determine the order of these religions and how they relate to one another in the big picture?

    I wonder if Baal might not have came first? I'll have to do some more research but this is getting confusing.... I think we should try to put our heads together and try to construct a timeline for these religions, to try and connect them in the big picture.... Is anyone with me on this?
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    Re: manichaeism

    Post by Extant on Wed May 06, 2009 5:33 pm

    warrenBbull wrote:Would anyone be interested in a small group project, to build a timeline to determine the order of these religions and how they relate to one another in the big picture?

    I wonder if Baal might not have came first? I'll have to do some more research but this is getting confusing.... I think we should try to put our heads together and try to construct a timeline for these religions, to try and connect them in the big picture.... Is anyone with me on this?

    I think it's going to be immensely difficult to organize a timeline, especially if you're looking back to pre-recorded history to attempt to establish which form of worship has precedence over all others.

    I'd like to help out, but I don't know if I have the time. I'm doing my own research into ancient myths right now and the history of the Céile Dé, two interconnected strands as I'm looking at it right now. But contact me by PM or something and maybe I can work with you as this may have some overlap with what I'm looking into.

    For this though I recommend going to a good university library. I'm heading off to the National British Library when I can arrange the trip. The internet just doesn't cut it often enough for the real research.

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    Re: manichaeism

    Post by warrenBbull on Sun May 10, 2009 1:25 pm

    I kinda think that the basic tenants of zoroastrianism were already written down well before the time of Zoroaster... Here is why I say that; Atonism appears to pre-date zorastrianism.... Now Atonism is more or less x-ianity before x-ianity, just with name changes. All today's religions were based on the beliefs of zoroastrianism (and that includes x-ianity)....

    So if Atonism is a more-or-less carbon copy of Christianity that existed BEFORE christianity, and even before zoroastrianism (which Christianity is based on), then I can only imagine they had this belief system already mapped out prior to zoroaster.... So I tend to think Zoroaster was most likely just a puppet to bring this religion to surface.
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    Re: manichaeism

    Post by Lucid Memes on Mon May 11, 2009 9:16 pm

    Do you mean Akhenaten's Atenism, Warren?

    That's an interesting study into how that would play off against each other. Zoroastrianism was established around the time the Hebrews were released from the Babylonian captivity (this coming after Akhenaten's reign)...but I'm still not able to find a direct date on Zoroaster...Zoroaster may have come before Akhenaten but i'm not sure yet


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    Re: manichaeism

    Post by Phoenix778m on Thu May 14, 2009 3:54 pm

    This is from my timeline here:
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    Egypt Dynasty V(Sun God)2465-2323 BC Pyramid Text, The priesthood of the god Re become powerful at Heliopolis and some of the kings of the 5th dynasty built Solar Temples.
    Akhenaten 1336/1334 BC Pharaoh of the Eighteenth dynasty of Egypt. He is especially noted for attempting to compel the Egyptian population in the monotheistic worship of Aten(Sun God).
    Avestas 1000 BC Written by Zoroaster.

    I have found that the worship of Saturn or a father god goes back further than the worship of his compassionate SUN/SON god.
    This knife handle depicting EL has been dated to 3500BC.
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    I have a lecture on this god of all time here:
    Title:Counter-Fate Fathers of Saturn


    Some things to research and take note of while watching and further research.
    Murugan (Indic God)
    Chaos
    6
    "Pleiades" part of the Taurus/Toro Constelation
    Ursa Major
    7 Hills of Rome
    Zeus
    Spear
    Athena
    Peacock
    ASHerah
    Osiris aka (Aser/Asher)
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    ASHkenNAZI?
    ASHtoreth
    ASH Wednesday
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    Papal Bull
    If you are familiar with Jordan Maxwell's work this should start to connect for some. I attempt to take people farther then the mysticism that surrounds Maxwell. Remember that all these "gods" are hermaphroditic don't let the genders assigned by historians fool you.

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    good site for studying zoroastrianism

    Post by warrenBbull on Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:44 pm

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    This link provides a good study source on Zoroastrianism, it's history, it's religious and cultural concepts, rituals and practices, and basically anything you'd wanna know about zoroastrianism (at least at an exoteric level, but as always do keep your 3rd eye open)....

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